NFLPA - Dirty Bastards

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...d-players.html

EA and NFLPA - those dirty rat bastards making deals to fuck over the former players that brought the league to greatness. It is unbelievable that in todays age we glorify players that celebrate, get arrested or shot, make everything about themselves not the team, fight, yet no attention is paid to the former players who made the league what it is. IMO football from the 80s and 90s is WAY better than it is now. Montana, Thomas, Rice, Lofton, Young, Marino, Elway, Smith, Monk, Allen, Jackson, Sanders, Kelly, Boomer, Walter, Refridgerator Perry, these were great players that could be seen as role models. Marshall, TO, Moss, Favre, Smith, Pacman, Tank, Ocho, the many drug/law related busts. The players are getting bigger, faster stronger, but also getting a sense of entitlement and an "above the law" attitude. I REALLY hope Gene Upshaw had nothing to do with this, that is a man I respected.

I cant believe you put Favre in that list.

I wouldn't include Favre in that second group.

edit: beat me to it tengo

Farve is an asshole, he fucks over his teams by taking so long to retire/not retire then he retires comes back a week later and starts all kinds of shit. I FUCKING hate Farve I believe he's great but I also believe he is selfish and in it for the stats unlike what he says about the fun. If you don't think Farve hasnt shown he's not selfish then you guys are crazy.

I don't even have to answer the question, Joker did for me. Favre has not been a good example or role model for anyone in the last few years. He has showed himself to be a selfish, me first player, who throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way. I coach little kids, and I pick my examples VERY carefully when describing something, because they shouldn't be emulating bad people. I pick people that are team players, and Favre has not shown that by his actions. To basically go to war with a team that has stood by you thick and thin is moronic. I hate Favre and Eli for the same reason, they didn't get their way so they throw a fit and get what they want. Professional sports should not be that way, the players WORK for the owners, it is their JOB. Other than that, Favre has been a Hall of Fame quarterback, one of the best every, but not a good role model because of the high publicity fits. He will be remembered not only for his great play but also his indecisive games at the end of his career.

TheTrueJ0KER wrote:

Farve is an asshole, he fucks over his teams by taking so long to retire/not retire then he retires comes back a week later and starts all kinds of shit. I FUCKING hate Farve I believe he's great but I also believe he is selfish and in it for the stats unlike what he says about the fun. If you don't think Farve hasnt shown he's not selfish then you guys are crazy.

PaulZweber wrote:

I don't even have to answer the question, Joker did for me. Favre has not been a good example or role model for anyone in the last few years. He has showed himself to be a selfish, me first player, who throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way. I coach little kids, and I pick my examples VERY carefully when describing something, because they shouldn't be emulating bad people. I pick people that are team players, and Favre has not shown that by his actions. To basically go to war with a team that has stood by you thick and thin is moronic. I hate Favre and Eli for the same reason, they didn't get their way so they throw a fit and get what they want. Professional sports should not be that way, the players WORK for the owners, it is their JOB. Other than that, Favre has been a Hall of Fame quarterback, one of the best every, but not a good role model because of the high publicity fits. He will be remembered not only for his great play but also his indecisive games at the end of his career.

TheTrueJ0KER wrote:

Farve is an asshole, he fucks over his teams by taking so long to retire/not retire then he retires comes back a week later and starts all kinds of shit. I FUCKING hate Farve I believe he's great but I also believe he is selfish and in it for the stats unlike what he says about the fun. If you don't think Farve hasnt shown he's not selfish then you guys are crazy.

Understood, but to include him in with guys like Ocho, Tank, and Pacman? I don't think so.

I am more than willing to add Eli Manning to that list. Favre is on it not because of breaking the law, but because he is also setting a bad example. I will say he isnt as bad though...

Fuck both of you, Brett made the decision that many players go through when they retire. It doesn't make him any lesser of a player or "role model". This last year turned out just fine, both ends got what they wanted, he didn't intentionally do it for the sake of himself, or to interfere with his teammates preparation for the season. He simply felt he could still bring something to the table to help a team get to a superbowl. You're opinions on the matter mean jack shit, you were all just crying about ESPN running the story 24/7 and writers with all these bullshit articles.

Brett Favre is one of the greatest football players in the history of the game. No matter what you think.

Whoa, settle down. I think there are valid points on both sides, except for the harsh language. Favre is a great player, and will be remembered as one of the best ever. As for him being a "role model", I think he is, and I doubt that his actions represent a bad human being. I think his heart, and love for the game will transcend his public waivering of team loyalty.
As you said Paul, this is a job, and a job that pays well if you win. I can understand Brett's issue with management, he saw Randy Moss as the talent he is before the Patriots did. And they passed giving up a 4th round pick for him, and again passed on the chance of signing him in free-agency. I think the Packers owed him the ability to help with decision making, seeing he brought so much revenue to the organization during his tenure. Clearly the Packers would have been a much better team with Moss, so why not atleast make the attempt to get him. On the other hand, Donald Driver, and Greg Jennings are tremendous talents, and they went through the whole drama of Favre's "retirement" without saying a word. He treated his teammates with a great level of disrespect, by not being loyal and commited.
Regardless, Favre is an amazing player, and with all of the bad people in the world, I think he is a great role model. He has literally given his blood, sweat, and tears, to benifit his team, and I think anybody can admire his leadership. He did'nt have to play the game after his father passed away, but he did, and he played an amazing game. I think that is an inspiration in itself, and I doubt children will imitate Favre and do bad things.
Also, this is a completely different era, not just in the NFL, but in society in general. We can't forget about the racism that plagued the league in past years, and we also can't forget the strong players of the past that shaped this league into what it is today.
I as well wish there were better role models in the NFL, but we only perpetuate the bad images by placing blame on the "Ocho Cinco's" and "Pacman Jones" of the league. There are plenty of great role models in todays game, they just get overlooked because people would rather hear the latest TO locker room quote. We have people like Ray Lewis, who is an incredibly smart and charismatic person. We also have people like Adrian Peterson, who had to face tough obstacles his whole life, and is now one of the NFL's best.
The NFL is just a reflection of our culture, that has been amplified by media coverage, and ratings. We can place no more blame on the NFL, than we can on people we see on a daily basis. Money is the reason why we have the problems we have in the NFL, not bad people. It's a league fueled by Characters, and locker room drama. Yeah, Roger Goodell pretends to be a strong enforcer of "player conduct". But without the Chad Johnson's, and TO's, he would'nt have nearly as much money, or TV ratings.
I'm sorry if I rambled on for too long, but this is just my take on the league, and the problems facing it.

Tengo Juego wrote:

Brett Favre is one of the greatest football players in the history of the game. No matter what you think.

+1

The fact you think Farve is the best football play ever shows you have no FUCKING clue about Football. There is atleast 1 QB in the league now that is better then Farve ever was, I dont understand why people loved Farve for doing everything other QB's have done like flip passes and shuffle passes. You realize he has gone to the Super Bowl twice in his career and only won once and he is the best football play ever? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Give me Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Lorence Taylor, Montanya, Bart Star.

Also why say fuck both of us? all we were doing is voicing our opinion, you need to calm down when your backing up your precious little Brett Farve how likes to retire every year or keep his team waiting on his decision trying to make him bigger then his team and the game.

I respect everyones opinions, because I feel like everyone is only speaking for what they feel is the truth. I just don't think this should turn into a bash session, because no-one should be so sensitive that they feel truly threatened by someone voicing their opinions. PaulZ, what you say is truthful, poigniant, and from the heart. I just want to say, though, that as long as America suffers from violence, drug abuse, and entitlement issues, so will it's affiliates.
The NFL is fueled, and payed for, by the excessive consumption of alchohol, and the glorified violence that, generally, we all possess. If it weren't for the primal need for man to show his greatness, their would be no crowning of champions. Jerry Rice, as great a player as he was, to this day is infatuated by his own self, as are most of the players you mentioned. I know that beneath your message, was the point of the need for role-models in the NFL, but I think it's important that we reserve some judgement. Yes, I to agree that their are way too many players in the NFL who only seem to care about themselves, but their is no difference between them, and the monopolistic system they play under. Who cares if alchohol related crimes are at an all time high, as long as the NFL get's their revenue. The lack of responibility, intellect, and leadership is across the board, and makes no distinction between Adam "Pac Man" Jones, Roger Goodell, and the infamous Don Imus. I, however, would like to think that those people are out-shown by the vastly larger number of players who assume the role of heroes on and off the field.
Yes, Brett Favre is a man who has chosen his own career over the careers of his team-mates, but he is also a man who has overcome very great things. If it weren't for his conscious effort to stop his addiction to prescription medication, he would be no more than another cautionary tale of what can happen when you go down the wrong road. Alot more can be gained from him in his current form, than ever could be in his addictive form. It just depends on what we choose to see in him. I like to see the good, because the bad will always be their for those who choose to see it.
None the less, your points are valid, and your message is done in the interest of positivity. I see that, and I think it's unfair that you recieve personal attacks for simply voicing your opinion. Clearly you thought out what you were going to say, and in no way was what you said hurtful, or un-true. In fact, you were very honest, and in alot of ways I agree with you completely.
Personally, though, I have to say I love the NFL of today, and I think it's better than it's ever been. Maybe that's, because I never grew up with the Steelers of the 70's, or the 49er's of the 80's, or because I am more understanding of today's culture, than I am of the past. I do know that their is alot of negative things that taint the NFL's historic pride, though. For example, Terry Bradshaw is a Hall of Famer, yet he only got his job, because racism plagued the quarterback he succeeded. Joe Gilliam was one of the most talented players of his time, but because he was black, and Bradshaw had blond hair and blue eyes, Gilliam found himself jobless, and lived out a chilling life of pain and crack addiction. Doug Williams would never have started in the 80's if the QB he played behind didn't consistently prove he was unworthy, and he ended up winning a super bowl. Forward to todays game, and Gus Frerotte sat on the bench until QB Tarvaris Jackson proved he was also unworthy. That's why I say "take the good with the bad".
Maybe the NFL isn't where it needs to be, but neither is the rest of america. At least, though, their is progress, and players have never been compensated and medically evaluated as well as they are today. I just think it will be a little while longer until the NFL is where it needs to be, but in the mean time we should appreciate the role models we do have, and focus on things that will improve the state of the league. It's only going to get better from here!

TheTrueJ0KER wrote:

Farve is an asshole, he fucks over his teams by taking so long to retire/not retire then he retires comes back a week later and starts all kinds of shit. I FUCKING hate Farve I believe he's great but I also believe he is selfish and in it for the stats unlike what he says about the fun. If you don't think Farve hasnt shown he's not selfish then you guys are crazy.

You've got to look at it from Farve's point of view. He's played in the NFL for many many years. He has had a legendary career. His last season ends in the playoffs with him throwing an INT. While he was considering his future in the offseason the Packers organization pressured him for an answer, so he retired. After giving it more thought he decided he was not ready to retire and announced he was coming back. I see no problem with that.

First of all Tengo, neither one of us attacked you, we don’t deserve a FUCK YOU just because of our opinions. That is exactly what they are, OUR OPINIONS, deal with it. No need to get so fired up, you are neither friend nor family to the guy. Favre DID do this intentionally for the sake of himself, he showed himself to be VERY selfish and doesn’t care about teammates or winning. He did interfere not only with his teammates preparation for this season, as well as last season, but the whole organization. Regardless of what you think, the organization has stuck with Favre through thick and thin. Favre has long been regarded as a gunslinger who tries to force too many passes. He is a great player, but overrated. My opinions might mean jack shit to you or Favre, but the same can be said about you. Get over it.

I truly do not think that Favre is a good role model for me to use as an example for the kids I am coaching. We stress “Team First” in our organization, and this is not something Favre values. There is no way that I want one of my players to think they are bigger than the team, or that they can quit and come back whenever they want, however many times. If you quit my team, you are done, you obviously do not have the dedication needed. Nothing about Favre shows me this. He has dedication all right, but it is too himself. There are plenty examples of the toughness and longetivity that Brett exudes, I would rather have kids emulate someone else. He is not loyal to either the team or teammates, and could care less about people that he has been around for 10+ years. That, to me, is shallow, egotistical, and selfish, which are not qualities I am trying to build in the young men I coach.

The NFL is entertainment for us, and a job for the players. They are paid extraordinary amounts of money, and should stay on their best behavior. The Packers owe Brett nothing, they stood by him for years, and he repaid them with leaving. He didn’t get what he wanted so he took his arm and went home. Players do not deserve to have front office responsibilities. Favre should not have control over who he plays with. If he picks who the organization signs or drafts, and the guy is a bust, the GM gets blamed, not Favre. Or look at it this way, if Favre picks someone, he is a bust, and the fans get on Favre, the face of the organization. That is not good for the team either. Going out and getting Randy Moss was a risky move, not a sure thing at all. If you will remember, last year Moss was a huge question mark coming into the season. Can he get along with teammates, will he play hard? These questions were answered last year, with great results. No one could have seen that coming. Moss was almost on his way out of the league, very few team would have taken a chance on him if he didn’t work out with the Patriots. The Packers already had a very solid player in Driver and a star in the making in Jennings, what benefit would they receive from stunting their progress? The Packers were a bit of a surprise last year too if you can remember, they weren’t the odds on to win the championship, and they wouldn’t have with Moss either. Ryan Grant came on last year to go along with Favre having a career year.


You are right, this is a different era. The racism that plagued the league was a problem nation wide. We hear great stories all the time, this past weekend TBs kicker kicked an awesome game after the passing of his son, that is something to be proud of, that is leadership and guts. I am not so sure about Ray Lewis, anyone who has possibly killed someone is not someone to look up to. I know everyone makes mistakes, but he made a huge one that should tarnish his image more than it has. Look at it this way. Brian Bosworth was a great talent who wasted it away by doing steroids. He ended up being a nobody in the NFL and is still ridiculed today. Ray Lewis quite possibly killed a man or woman, and here we are eight years later saying he is a good role model. He has certain qualities of a role model, as well as Favre does, but I wouldn’t want people to emulate him either. If you look back, the NFL wasn’t about pimpin bitches and bling bling, it wasn’t about money and marketing yourself, it was about become a great player and winning the Super Bowl. For the Super Bowl not to be a players number one career goal is selfish, and I would wager at least 50% of the players would rather make $10,000,000 extra than a championship. That is not why we play the game. I think there has been a HUGE shift in sports emphasis the last ten years. Sports are seen as a ticket to riches, even for young children. Parents push kids from a VERY young age to try to be the next NFL or NBA star. I have known these kids, I know these parents. Maybe it is just me maturing and growing up, but to me the glory days of the NFL was the 80s/90s. I wasn’t pressured into playing sports, or scoring touchdowns or dunking, I did it because I love playing. When I see kids dancing after a touchdown, or getting in the face of an opponent, or not acknowledging a great pass from a teammate, that is from watching professional sports. Money given to bad people is the reason we have problems in the NFL. No one is held accountable because they make so much money and bring in so much revenue.

“Yes, Brett Favre is a man who has chosen his own career over the careers of his team-mates, but he is also a man who has overcome very great things. If it weren't for his conscious effort to stop his addiction to prescription medication, he would be no more than another cautionary tale of what can happen when you go down the wrong road. Alot more can be gained from him in his current form, than ever could be in his addictive form.”

Call me crazy, but I do not thing that anyone should be considered a better person, or that they overcame SO much because they overcame a drug addiction. If you didn’t make the choice to start popping them in the first place, you wouldn’t have had an addiction. You are not a better person that someone who hasn’t overcome addiction, in fact, in my eyes you are a much more mentally weak person than someone who stayed away from the drugs, or used the prescribed pills how they were PRESCRIBED. Josh Hamilton was a great player this year, but is he better than someone else because they didn’t use drugs? No. That is just showing the world that “It’s ok to use drugs, you will be fine if you play sports.”

Every great player has to have confidence in themselves, and have to know in their mind that they are a better player than anyone else on the field/court on every play. That does not mean you put yourselves over your teammates. You think Jerry Rice was jealous of Dwight Clarks catch? Most likely. You think he was overjoyed they won the game. Without a doubt. That is the difference between someone like Rice and TO. Rice wanted to win no matter what, TO bitches because he wants to ball more. Keyshawn Owens? Just because we have problems with drugs, alcohol, and violence does not mean the NFL should put up with it. Players are seriously considering the need for bulletproof cars? What the fuck, they are the president. If they wouldn’t go to the club flashing money, stealing girls, starting fights, they wouldn’t be targeted as much. The being said, the Sean Taylor incident does not apply to what I am saying. He was targeted for a robbery.

Just for the record Frerotte has played, and had chances to start in the past. He couldn’t take advantage of opportunities, and he decided that headbutting walls was a good idea.

The funny thing about this is it was not supposed to be a disussion on Favre or role models at all, I was pissed about EA and NFLPA screwing over football video game fans and former NFL players. I have an opinion on this subject and I stand by it. You guys are entitled to your own opinion as I am to mine. You don’t like it, don’t attack me, try to have a civilized conversation. That is part of growing up and maturing.

PaulZweber wrote:

I am not so sure about Ray Lewis, anyone who has possibly killed someone is not someone to look up to. I know everyone makes mistakes, but he made a huge one that should tarnish his image more than it has. Look at it this way. Brian Bosworth was a great talent who wasted it away by doing steroids. He ended up being a nobody in the NFL and is still ridiculed today. Ray Lewis quite possibly killed a man or woman, and here we are eight years later saying he is a good role model.

And Kevin Garnett is just a racist criminal who seeks to lynch white people. I just think it's just dangerous to label people as good or bad based on their alleged adolescent involvement in criminal affairs. Yes, you are partially responsible for the company you keep, but in the Kevin Garnett case, and the Ray Lewis case, both people have grown greatly from their experiences and have become great human beings, who are an inspiration for children of all colors and creed's across the globe. If anything Ray Lewis's image has been tarnished more than it ever should have been. The murder victim was not only Ray's room-mate, but he was his best friend. I've heard many interviews with Ray, along with doing alot of research onto the incident, and I will put my faith that he is not just a good man, but a great one. He has to live without his best friend, and will carry that with him for the rest of his life. He was in no way responsible for his murder, and if the Dade County Sherriffs Department can't come up with an indictment, or any trace of evidence in any form that he was involved in the murder, than I don't think we should play armchair detective. I don't mean that in a rude way, because I really respect you Paul. I just don't think it's fair to condemn a man as dedicated to his craft, and as loyal to his friends and family as Ray is!.

PaulZweber wrote:

Call me crazy, but I do not thing that anyone should be considered a better person, or that they overcame SO much because they overcame a drug addiction. If you didn’t make the choice to start popping them in the first place, you wouldn’t have had an addiction. You are not a better person that someone who hasn’t overcome addiction, in fact, in my eyes you are a much more mentally weak person than someone who stayed away from the drugs, or used the prescribed pills how they were PRESCRIBED.

I know where your coming from on this, but I see it in a different light. I'm not saying Brett's a hero for stopping his addiction to pain killers, but I am saying that the strength it takes to stop an addiction can not be under-estimated. I know you think that the strength to never do drugs in the first place is far greater the strength to stop, but this is where I dis-agree. There is no one reason that people turn to drugs and alchohol. Yes, some, if not most, turn to drugs out of pure weakness and selfishness, but for some drugs are a way out of the environment thats imprisoning them. Brett's case is a little different, because he got addicted after he became too dependant on them after a shoulder injury, but his life could have taken a drastic turn for the worst had he continued down that path. Maybe that's not an inspiration to 17 year old "Joey" who has a loving family, and a bright future ahead of him, but for 16 "Billy" who lives in Wisconsin with his alcholic father, and who's only inspiration is a Green Bay quarterback who he looks up to like a hero, it makes a world of difference. There is no black & white when it comes to heroes. What one man/woman respects and admires is completely different to what another does. To me at least, it all comes back to each persons life experiences and what they find inspiring!.

PaulZweber wrote:

If you look back, the NFL wasn’t about pimpin bitches and bling bling, it wasn’t about money and marketing yourself, it was about become a great player and winning the Super Bowl. For the Super Bowl not to be a players number one career goal is selfish, and I would wager at least 50% of the players would rather make $10,000,000 extra than a championship. That is not why we play the game. I think there has been a HUGE shift in sports emphasis the last ten years. Sports are seen as a ticket to riches, even for young children. Parents push kids from a VERY young age to try to be the next NFL or NBA star.

First off I have a huge problem with the term "pimpin bitches and bling bling". That's just a label placed on todays athletes by a larger caucasian population. I've never heard Chad Johnson say after a loss " Ya, we lost, but at least I still got me some bitches to pimp and bling to sport". I also think that when you say that term you are targeting a specific race of people, whether consciously or un-consciously. The truth is, the degredation of women is far more prevalent in "rural" communities, because of the lack of culture and influence. That's just generalizing, and it really under-estimates the intellect and ability of todays young athletes. Maybe all you hear on TV is the negative portrayal of todays athletes, a majority of them who are black, but to eat it up with a silver spoon is just un-fair. If people didn't watch every Sportscenter where Adam Jones goes clubbing, then maybe things would be different. To me it just proves that their is still extreme ignorance about todays young athletes, mixed with a refusal to research about the positive. That's a direct reflection of America, but we still have a responsibility to find out what's really going on. Everytime I see a negative portrayal of an athlete I just change the channel. There's no point in allowing some media outlet to determine how I view society. Yes, there may be greed in a select few athletes, and yes players do love money. To me, though that is a good thing. As long as they don't waste their money on useless things, I think the accumulation of wealth is very important. When I think of player's like T.O. and Chad Johnson, I think of the term "self made millionaire". They don't owe the NFL anything, because if they weren't gifted athletes the NFL wouldn't give them the time of day. Admit it or not, sports are one of the only businesses where racism play's a small role in determining who get's paid, and so I think that the "paper chasing" mentallity is important. So are all of the songs about "get me money", because eventually that money will find it's way to a greater population and it otherwise would just be spent in the scaly white knuckles of the old rich tycoons, who want a new private jet. Players annually spend way more money on charities, and on people who need it then any other foundation or goverment. That just isn't well publicised, because it's detrimental to the image that's built up by the media. a direct reflection of people who love to see Adam Jones mug shot, because of the small joy it gives them to consider themselves better than a pro athlete. Again, just my opinions and I do respect yours greatly, I just think it's important to state my perspective, because any glimpse of enlightenment I can shed on any certain topic is a good thing!.

PaulZweber wrote:

Wow, I am not reading those walls of text. Brett Favre was my role model growing up and I can say the guy has never done anything wrong, think what you want, believe what you want, Brett is the epitome of what players should be in the NFL. PERIOD

And I apologize for the FUCK YOU lol...the whole thing caught me off guard and kinda set me off.

Tengo, I understand you being defensive, and if you would like to discuss it we can during our game. If not it can be dropped between us, no hard feelings.

Tengo Juego wrote:

Wow, I am not reading those walls of text. Brett Favre was my role model growing up and I can say the guy has never done anything wrong, think what you want, believe what you want, Brett is the epitome of what players should be in the NFL. PERIOD

And I apologize for the FUCK YOU lol...the whole thing caught me off guard and kinda set me off.

We are all more than partially responsible for the company we keep. Every last person. You have a choice when your friend calls and wants to hang out, you can say no. Every professional athlete picks who is around them. If they want a posse latched on as opposed to a group of friends and family looking out for their best interests, that is their own fault in most cases. They chose where they go out, they chose how much they drink, they chose all their actions. I am not trying to play armchair detective and condemn or convict anyone. I will, however, not tell a kid in the age groups that I coach (6th-12th grades) that an accused murderer is a good person to look up to. And I think that I need to point out that a role model and a good person arent the same thing. Just because I don't think someone should be a role model does not mean that I nessecarily think they are a bad or horrible person, just not someone to look up to and admire. You can still be a fan, which I am, just not an example that I personally am going to use. When I coach younger kids, you have to use examples of high school, college, or pro players, because they look up and admire those people. When I choose what players to mention, I have to be careful who I use as an example, because not only do the kids look up to the athletes, but they look up to me as a player they watched when they were younger and their coach now. The people I use to explain something, the kids go home and research and watch a player, I need to make sure I am sending the right message.

I have known people who have gone down the wrong path with drugs, used them for fun, or not touched them at all. I have much more respect for the people who had the personal willpower not to touch them at all. I am not saying he doesn't deserve credit for what he did, but to me that is not hero status. I agree, life experiences are different for different people, all of us judge and value different moral, religous, and personal beliefs, and none of us are wrong. Our basis for what a role model, or hero should be is different for each of us.

Ok, instead of "pimpin bitches and bling bling" substitute arrests, drugs, shootings, celebrations, fines, fights, calling out teamates, slacking off on plays, holding out for more money, refusing to play with teams that draft you. I am not targeting any race, I am a white man and I say pimpin bitches. It isnt a racist comment at all. I am a huge sports fan, I have been a sports fanatic since before I went to school, longer than I can remember. I do not refuse to research a subject, and I am neither ignorant nor a racist. So when you see something bad about an athlete, you change the channel? How is that researching the positive? To me that is just sticking your head in the dirt and ignoring the problem. I do not let media make my mind up for me, I use the media to do the research needed to make up my mind. Like it or not, but the news we get about these athletes is not first hand, it is through tv, internet, newspapers, and magazines. When I think of TO and Ocho, I think they are in the game for themselves. They might not owe the NFL anything, (exept the chance to make millions of dollars and play in front of millions of people weekly) but they sure as hell owe their teamates, coaches, and front office everything. For TO to go from team to team and badmouth his QB wherever he goes, that is selfish, childish, and not professional at all. When Ocho tries to show someone up, or puts on a HOF Jacket, that is not good sportsmanship, or a good example. That is not how the game was meant to be played. Some players give to charities because they want to, some because they are forced to, and others do it just so they look good to the public. Did you see Jonathan Bender's write up on all the charity work he does on ESPN.com last week. Huge, awesome, well written article about a guy who had unlimited potential, got hurt, didn't turn to drugs, and started rebuilding a city. People like him deserve to be praised, he is an awesome person, an awesome role model, and should be a hero to many. The problem is, no one knows who he is, or they just think he is some washed up basketball player. Whos fault is that? Is it ours, for not showing an interest in washed up, has been athletes, or is it the media, for not showing us these players after sports? I do not want to consider myself as "better" than a pro athlete, or any person for that matter. That is not why I watch sports or sportcenter. I watch it to see the best of the best compete to see who is the best team in the world. Sports should be about fun and winning championships. You win 'ships, the money comes. If you are a great player, the money comes. Semi-retarded and immature antics are not needed, and in my opinion bring nothing to the game. I do respect your opinions as well, that is why I take the time to write this.

Paul stop leaving a book for me to read you son of a bitch

lol. Sorry if I get carried away, I am just making sure I address everything. I don't even realize its a novel until after.

I completely agree with you, honestly!. I wasn't directing the "pimpin bitches" comment as you being racist, I just think that generally when people hear words like that it creates an image of a particular race of people, that's all. I also wasn't trying to offend you with the "change the channel" message, either. It was more of a statement towards the people who create some of the garbage on ESPN, and the people who consume so much of it that ESPN has a reason to continue creating it.
I know Terrell Owens is very selfish, and Chad Johnson can be very destructive to his team as well. Adam Jones has to really look at himself in the mirror, too, for not taking advantage of the tremendous oppurtunity that he was given by the Titan's, but it's just unfair to me, though, that every time player's make poor decisions, the whole league get's generalized. I mean most of today's league is made up of great human beings, who work hard and earn their money. That just doesn't strike a cord with most white fans, because they still see african-american players as nothing more than their height and weight. I'm sorry if I'm over looking people who do take the time to appreciate players as people, but I'm only saying this in the interest of emphasizing my point. For example, whenever they talk about players, they refer to them as horses, or machines, which to me undermines the value of someone dedicating their lives to perfecting a craft. Maybe to people at home it looks like their skills are machine-like, but they are real people who train very hard.
By the way, I am in no way a Brett Favre lover, either, I just personally like him, even though he can be very selfish. Not, because of his flick passes and un-conventional play, but because of his honesty and his pure talent. Even though he did hold the Packers up, I don't think it was to be malicious towards them. I just think in his head he thought that last year was as far as he'll be able to get in the playoffs, but when he had time to think he realized he still can perform. Some people don't like it when players overstay their welcome, because they feel it tarnishes their legacy, but for me personally I love it when someone gives everything they've got, even if he held up some people along the way.
Thats pretty much it, and I hope I didn't offend you with my posts. I can definitely tell from playing with you, and reading your posts that you personally are a good person, and you take the time to think before you speak, which I definitely respect. I do appreciate that you take the time to leave a well thought out post, instead of just one-lining your thoughts. Sorry if mine are too lengthy, I just like to get my entire point across, so that people get a better idea of what I think. Anyway, thanks for the post, and I completely understand where your coming from.

Ya, I too have a problem leaving to long of posts, if you can't tell already. I'm going to need a publisher pretty soon!. Anyways, good topic, and I hope to play you in Madden again real soon!.

I can see where that would be considered a racist comment, but that isn't me. When I think of that phrase I think of my friends in high school and college, thats what we were doing when we were going to parties, clubs, bars, ect... We were going out so we could "pimp bitches." It wasn't meant as disrespect to anyone, man, woman, white, black. I agree that there is a lot of trash on the tv, especially ESPN. I am not consumed with espn, not that you said I was, but I try to get my info from many sources, from local news to AP. What Jerry Jones is doing with Pacman is very comendable, he is trying to make sure the guy doesn't make the same mistakes again. The fact that he feels the need to do this speaks volumes about Adam Jones' sense of responsibility and maturity, and it shows me he hasn't grown up yet. He is a grown ass man who doesn't make the right decisions, doesn't put himself in good situations, and hasn't proved a whole lot to me. I hope he doesn't slip up, and I hope he has good people in his corner. Him and Tank Johnson make up a pretty criminal defense, but they are helping each other. The sad thing is, if Pacman becomes a good player and doesn't get arrested again, he will be showered with praise. It will be said that he overcame so much, that he matured. This to me is bullshit. He made stupid choices and honestly should not be in the league right now. He has tremendous talent, but like so many others, his head isnt on straight. Players need to understand that they represent so much to people. Think of this. Not only does Ocho represent the Bengals, he reps the city of Cincy, he reps the college he went to, he reps the high school he went to, he reps his family, friends, teamates, coaches, front office, and fans. To be representing all that, knowingly, on top of getting paid millions of dollars, he has to make the game about himself. He attempts to take all the attention off of everything he represents, and make it about himself. That is not the spirit of the game, that is not a good teamate, that isn't someone I want on my team under any circumstances.

All athletes are seen as machines or workhorses, not just black ones. If someone is a machine, they are automatic, they don't make mistakes, they are assumed to do exactly what they are supposed to. Being "A Machine!" is not a bad thing in my eyes at all. A workhorse can be any player that takes the majority of the runs, takes big hits, and keeps getting up. A rebounder or defender is a workhorse, because they get down and do the dirty work that isnt glamourous. He is someone who can play every down, and is very durable. In my eyes, being compared to these are compliments, not undermining their humanity. Some of these athletes train hard, some don't. Some work for everything they have, some skate by on athleticism and talent alone. The Favre situation, there is a reason that a retirement system in place, and Favre screwed with it. He obviously thought he could still play, and he obviously can. The fact of the matter is, don't bring down an entire organization, especially your teamates, because you change your mind. He could have gone about the thing the whole way. And the fact that he had a successor already in place probably made him feel uncomfortable. That is part of the game. You get old, your play goes down, you retire. I don't see him having a better chance to win in a NYJ jersey than a Packers. I am not offended by anything you guys have said, I know who I am, and you have kept this conversation the way I wanted it, a conversation. I have a great deal of respect for you as well as your brother, and from playing and conversing with you I can tell you are an intelligent person. We might not agree or see eye to eye on things, but we can still agree to disagree. The main reason my posts have been so long is because it is a touchy subject, I do not want to have something taken the wrong way, and I want to make sure I say what I want to say.

Well said everybody, I personally like longer posts so long as they are to the point, and non offensive. Clearly you care very much about the message your putting out, and the impact it has on others. I also think it's great that you take your coaching responsibility so seriously, it is very hard to find people that really care about these issues. I have much respect for people that express an opinion different from mine, when they take the time to relay it in a positive way. Although, I agree with all of your points anyways. I also try to take information from a large variety of sources, and I like to learn about everything. Even if it's a program about things I disagree with, like skinheads, addicts, gangs, etc... because then I can give a real opinion about it. This has been a great thread, and I enjoy reading your posts!!!

I take my coaching responsibility seriously because I don't want the kids to have bad coaches like my brothers and I had. My brothers are 6'7, 6'7, and 6'8, and they recieved horrible coaching and were basically broken down. I do not want the kids in our program to go through the same thing. I agree with you about watching tv programs about things I disagree with or dislike, if I don't know about something then I shouldn't talk. I have enjoyed this conversation and everyones input!

xKillmatic wrote:

Well said everybody, I personally like longer posts so long as they are to the point, and non offensive. Clearly you care very much about the message your putting out, and the impact it has on others. I also think it's great that you take your coaching responsibility so seriously, it is very hard to find people that really care about these issues. I have much respect for people that express an opinion different from mine, when they take the time to relay it in a positive way. Although, I agree with all of your points anyways. I also try to take information from a large variety of sources, and I like to learn about everything. Even if it's a program about things I disagree with, like skinheads, addicts, gangs, etc... because then I can give a real opinion about it. This has been a great thread, and I enjoy reading your posts!!!